INTERVIEW: Peter Burman & Murdoch Keane
Jennifer Cheuk catches up with Peter Burman & Murdoch Keane ahead of their spellbinding new show, Minnie&Judy. From the wicked minds that brought you She’s Crowning, Minnie&Judy is the secret history of two infamous women; Minnie Dean and Judy Garland. Presented live and in technicolor for the very first time. Think Blonde by way of Death Becomes Her. Minnie&Judy is a supreme act of fag iconoclasm.
Peter and Murdoch vibrate on a wavelength that is uniquely theirs. They talk with an urgency and a passion, but also a tongue-in-cheek playfulness. Their energy is captivating and you can’t help but be swept up in it all. We chat about the dark and the feminine, what it means to be infamous, and the legacy of Minnie Dean and Judy Garland.
Rat World: Who are you and what do you do?
Peter: Who am I and…?
Murdoch: What do I do…successfully?
It can be unsuccessfully as well if you want!
Peter: Unsuccessfully, I am a professional actor and theatre maker. I don't know. Who am I?
Murdoch: You're from Tauranga!
Peter: I'm from Tauranga originally. Grew up there. Then I went and spent some time in Wellington when I was studying. I just recently moved to Auckland actually! To pursue the dream.
Murdoch: I'm a maker. I think making up stories is something I've done since I was very, very small. I love to listen to people telling stories and then I love to tell my own version of what they said…which is literally what this is! I’m still doing that. I'm critically underrated. I'm a Cancer and a huge Madonna fan.
There are really only two types of people who answer this question – those who tell me their star sign and those who don’t. What’s your star sign?
Peter: Aquarius. What's yours?
Virgo.
Peter: Ohh yep. Beyonce's a Virgo.
So, I want to ask how you met? I've heard these little snippets of your backstory and it always sounds so interesting!
Murdoch: We met at drama school - we were in the same class.
Peter: I think coming from Tauranga, I'd never really met someone like Murdoch before. We were in our audition, and Murdoch was wearing this crop top and these big white flowing pants and had bleached hair. I think we were pretty good friends straight away.
Murdoch: Yeah, it was pretty instantaneous. I can't even remember a specific moment of being like, oh I really like Peter! It felt like I'd known this person for my whole life. It was one of those things. I think I said this to you at one of those party chats at the end of first year, but I was like: Peter, the thing about you and the thing about me is that we are different. But there's a part of our soul that is the same. And that is why we are the way we are together.
Was there something in particular that you clicked over?
Murdoch: Something people know about us - and I literally did it just then - is that we love references. We're both constantly finishing each other's sandwiches. Big pop culture fans.
Awesome. In the press release, the first thing that stuck out to me was this line about your fascination for “the dark and the feminine”. Where did that stem from for both of you? I saw there was a reference to Death Becomes Her – love that movie!
Peter: Okay cool, then you'll love the show [laughs]. It’s my favourite film of all time. When I was growing up, we didn't have animated films or anything like that. Mum would just go to the library and rent these random movies. Death Becomes Her just ended up in our DVD selection. I would watch it over and over again. It's just that one movie you have as a kid, and you watch it constantly. I've seen it so many times. I was also a big Tim Burton fan grown up. Loved The Addams Family. I just love these beautiful gaunt women who seem to be ageless and hilarious and scary and beautiful. I've always wanted to be that. When I make things, that’s what I am.
“I just love these beautiful gaunt women who seem to be ageless and hilarious and scary and beautiful. I've always wanted to be that”
What a dream.
Murdoch: When I was very small - I was very, very blonde back then - I remember my mum showing me some old Marilyn Monroe films and performances. Marilyn was this little woman with this tiny voice, but she was very peppy. And I was like, that’s what I am! I've got a little high voice and her name starts with an ‘M’ and my name starts with an ‘M’! That’s me! I think it’s the same kind of feeling - looking at the women in these worlds and seeing yourself in them.
And tell me about the show. When I read the synopsis, I was captivated – it’s such an interesting and unique story.
Peter: They were originally two separate shows that we made in drama school, and our directors pointed out that our shows were similar. That would really annoy Murdoch and I, like, they are not similar. They are different!
Who made Minnie Dean and who made Judy Garland?
Peter: I made the Minnie Dean solo.
Murdoch: And I made the Judy Garland solo.
That suddenly says a lot.
Murdoch: Even though we made them separately, there were things we both did that were very similar. Themes about being misunderstood and forgotten and misrepresented, about trying to take control of your own life. I feel like that's a big part of both shows. We’re also big fans of genre and there are a million different ways to look at these two stories. So, we were like, what if the Minnie Dean story was a neo noir? Or a Victorian period drama? What if The Wizard of Oz was a heist film? It’s about switching you up, but it’s also about just having a really good time. There’s a lot of tragedy, and yes we need to cry, but we also need to laugh.
What drew you to the Minnie Dean story?
Peter: I remember in Year 13 we had to find a piece of New Zealand history and write about it. So, I was like, who’s been executed in New Zealand?
Great place to start.
Peter: And then I found out that we’ve only ever had one woman be executed. And it was her. The story was so interesting and the more you dig into it, the more complex everything gets. I just think she’s a great vessel for character exploration. She’s kind of a dream. Also, I'm just interested in letting other people know about her. I feel like this story deserves to be told, and it hasn't really been told before.
And then alternatively, what drew you towards Judy Garland?
Murdoch: I steered away from Judy for quite a while when we were making the solos. I wanted to do something that used lots of actresses from that period, like Marilyn and Liz Taylor. So, I was playing with these old tapes that were in the show – Judy recorded these quite close to the end of her life because she was trying to write a book. I was like, maybe I can have these playing and I could lip sync, or maybe my character could be reacting to them? But our director just asked me to stop the tapes and then to just be Judy Garland speaking at her own funeral. To just do that right then and there. And I did it. After that, I knew that this is what it had to be. I had to do Judy. But I had to do it in a million different ways.
Wow. What an intense ask.
Murdoch: Something about it is like, I'm like nothing. I'm not Renee Zellweger. I don't have the prosthetics or the wigs. Those stakes just aren't there. So, I have license to do anything. Judy’s gone and I can never meet her. I didn’t even know her. But I can show people what lives in my head. What that Judy is.
What do you feel is particularly unique about this show or that you’re doing differently to other works?
Peter: When Jane Yonge came in to see the show, she called it a biopic on stage. I’ve been thinking about that a lot.
Murdoch: And when you think ‘biopic’, you think historical accuracy and truth. We’re putting a really big question mark on that. Why does it have to be that way? Is that how you really get to know who these people are?
“When you think ‘biopic’, you think historical accuracy and truth. We’re putting a really big question mark on that. Why does it have to be that way? Is that how you really get to know who these people are?”
And do you feel like you’re excavating the essence of these two women?
Murdoch: Mm. How are we getting closer to these divas…This might have to be a bit of a fruity actor answer, but I think that part of the process is like magic. It comes from somewhere and you have to roll with it.
Peter: It's already in the body.
Murdoch: Yea. It’s in our bodies.
Peter: It's a hard thing to verbalize. I think my version of Minnie is an amalgamation of all the women I watched growing up. She's Morticia Adams, she’s Meryl Streep, she's Gillian Anderson. She’s all these women and she's my version of them.
Has working on this show almost been cathartic?
Murdoch: A big part of it is that we're really good friends. When we are in those rehearsal rooms by ourselves for hours, things get pretty silly. And we get pretty stupid. I don’t think you get a lot of that as a working adult. It feels like you’re a little kid again playing with your mates. That’s cathartic and it’s so precious to me. I feel very lucky to have that in my weekly routine.
And there are aspects of verbatim in this show, right?
Peter: There’s no real verbatim for Minnie, just because she died so many centuries ago. But there are excerpts of what she wrote before she died.
Murdoch: And Judy had so much media around her. That's something we were really juggling with is that there is so little about Minnie, but so much about Judy. But that’s the question: how much of it is even true? Even though there’s a wealth of media, it almost distorts her even more. There’s so much junk and glamorization of mental illness and overworking. I think it’s kind of juicy to put something false next to something real.
Peter: Yeah. I think that the verbatim punctuates the show.
That’s really cool. I mean, I was just reading about all the media around Shelly Duvall recently and the way they hounded her in the media. I think it’s really interesting you’re talking about the distortion of truth and what truth even is.
Murdoch: We were thinking about it a bit last night. The trials and tribulations we face as young independent actors are definitely not the same as these women. But we do work really hard and it’s often thankless. So, it’s like, how do we break these vicious cycles? How do we make sure not to perpetrate these things more?
Absolutely. Minnie&Judy is centered around infamy – I want to ask what infamy means to you.
Peter: I don't even really know what that means.
Murdoch: You use it in your show!
Peter: It just sounds really cool!
Murdoch: Infamy is like… famous, but for the wrong reasons. Notorious.
Or what do you feel like you’re infamous for?
[A long pause with lots of laughter]
Let’s keep it legal!
[More laughter]
Peter: I feel like I'm infamous for being quite cold. It takes me a long time to warm up to people. I also try not to have a reputation - I don't even like social media. So, when we have to post stories for the show, it really freaks me out.
Murdoch: For me, infamy means having a section on your Wikipedia page that says ‘controversy’. I think I’d like that one day. It’s also about culture and counterculture. There’s a dominant line and then there’s a countercultural line, and for me, if you’re beloved by the most interesting people, you’re probably a bit infamous. We don’t have a history of uplifting bad women in Aotearoa, and I think we should do that more! I think infamy is also about being divisive, which again comes back to the industry. It’s hard trying to maintain artistic integrity and follow our own interests, while also thinking about attracting people to come see the show. But…we are just really passionate about being entertaining. I don't think we would ever make a boring show,
Peter: I couldn't perform at a show that's not like fun. I hate going to shows and feeling like I haven't got my money's worth of being entertained.
Murdoch: I also hate going to a show and feeling told off.
Peter: Or preached at. We don’t really worry about ticket sales. I think this early on in our careers, we are kind of showing off in a way.
Murdoch: Letting people know what we can do.
And what's the goal for the future? Where do you want this show to go?
Murdoch: Hard to know. At this point in the process, right before we are about to open, we both feel like we never want to do this again. But after we have the response, it might need a little more life. I don’t know. We’ll assess that then. I think in the long time, I’m keen to expand outwards and work with the really amazing designers and makers we know. But it’s hard to approach people because I don’t have much to offer at this stage. Hopefully we will be at a place one day where we can just give people everything they need to make the best work.
Peter: I think the dream would be to have our own production company or thetare company where we focus on queer artists and just make work that’s exciting and fun.
Murdoch: Like kids shows for adults! There's something about that. But, when I say ‘kids shows for adults’ it makes it sound like The Wiggles for adults, which is not what I mean. These are mature works, but they are fun! They are a good time!
Peter: And like Murdoch said, just working with our friends and being able to pay them for their work.
I really want to ask what you have personally taken away from the process of working on Minnie&Judy?
Peter: What am I taking away? (Probably a butter chicken at the end of this!)
Murdoch: I was thinking about this on the drive here. When I start to write the pitch for something, or I script the scenes, I can see the whole show in my head. I see the lights, the sound, everything. But that’s just an idea. It’s just in my head. The real show is when I’m in the room with Peter and we’re doing stuff. That’s what’s actually happening. A big part of the process has been me adjusting to what we actually do together. We’re similar, but we are also different, and we do those different things strongly, together.
Peter: I think at the start of rehearsals, Murdoch offered so much, but I wanted to remain integral to the original work. For me, it’s just about finding that balance between us; how we blend together, how we complement and contrast each other.
I just think it’s so amazing that you actually met in the timeline. How many variables lined up for you to have found each other!
Murdoch: I hope you don't mind me saying, but Peter holds the Guinness World Record for the most number of auditions for Toi Whakaari. Peter auditioned many times and I think about if Peter had gotten in earlier, or later, or not at all, we never would have met. Peter’s a great mate, but he’s also a little bit of an artistic muse. I wouldn’t have done these shows if he had not been my friend.
Peter: I'm the same
The costumes on the poster look amazing! Is costume a large part of the show?
Peter: I would say so. I think compared to our last show, there's a lot less costume. But we were in costume from the very beginning of rehearsal. It gives us a lot in terms of character and body and voice.
Murdoch: The costumes are actually legacy pieces from the original solo, so they mean a lot to us. It's like seeing an old friend again.
Peter: I remember when we finished the original solos, I just kept my costume. We weren’t supposed to, but I kept mine. I knew that one day, I’d do it again. And I’d need this.
What was the process for merging the shows together?
Murdoch: A difficult one.
Peter: For me, I was like, this is my world! I don’t fit into your technicolor world. But when we started weaving them together, I had to get over myself and see that the work could change. They complement each other very well now.
Murdoch: Major and minor are important in this show. We realized both Minnie and Judy had to both be on the stage for the whole time – you’re watching two worlds at once. So, it became a constant question of: is this complement or contrast? And once you’ve answered that, it gets easier.
Peter: What's weird is that both women have a cult of diehard fans around them. I watched a talk about Minnie Dean on Youtube, and this legion of Minnie Dean enthusiasts had shown up to watch this author speak about her. And of course, Judy Garland has this legacy of queer fans-
Murdoch: -who are dying. That was something I thought about when I was making the original solo. I have to tell this story. Because what if there's a time when no one cares.
Peter: I learnt a lot when I first saw Murdoch's show. I had no idea who Judy Garland was - I knew Dorothy, of course, but I didn’t know the legacy of her being the first icon to accept everyone as her fans.
I’m really interested in the way you’re excavating the history around these women, and what history and legacy means.
Murdoch: History is just an extension of enjoying stories. What we learnt in school won’t always be there. History can change depending on perspective. It’s fluid.
Were there any specific influences or inspirations for the show?
Murdoch: We don’t have too many influences. We are making a show that we feel is missing from the artistic landscape. A big part of this show is identity and as two gay people, we don’t say the word ‘gay’ once. We don’t say the word ‘queer’ once. It’s about the feeling.
Peter: The people who helped us, like Jane, inspired the work too. Those opinions inspire us to keep making and keep challenging ourselves.
And finally: when is the show and why should people come?
Peter: It’s on from Tuesday to Saturday next week (15-19 August). You should because it’s pay what you can, meaning that there’s no excuse not to come. It’s a nice cheap night out for some entertainment!
Murdoch: Emphasis on entertainment. You could go out for a night in town and spend how much on drinks, how much on club entry, trying to feel entertained, having a miserable, soul sucking night. But in this condensed hour, you will have fun. You will laugh. You will learn. I will say that, when theatre is bad, it’s really bad. You feel like you’re trapped in a corner and someone you don’t want to talk to, is talking to you. But when theatre is good and when it moves you, you remember that for the rest of your life. I can’t tell you if the show will be that for anyone, but it could be. And that chance is exciting. It’s the possibility that this might be the best thing you see.
“You could go out for a night in town and spend how much on drinks, how much on club entry, trying to feel entertained, having a miserable, soul sucking night. But in this condensed hour, you will have fun. You will laugh. You will learn.”
■
Minnie&Judy will be on at Basement Theatre from 15-19 August. Book your tickets here!